Tuesday, October 24, 2017

Introductory Remarks


The purpose of these articles are to cover issues of controversy with regards to Bnei Noach and the Laws for them; things that I see posing a danger to those sincere non-Jews who want to get close to the G-d of Israel. Primarily I want to clarify the issues with regards to the ‘Ger’ controversies. I intend to go through all of the sources that are involved and give easy to understand explanations.

Before starting there is one issue I need to address. There have been a number of actions reported to me that I consider inappropriate. I would like to address my remarks to those who respect me and will listen to me. There is no excuse for threats, or attacking those who disagree with you. Calling Rabbi Katz degrading names or worse is not acceptable and is close to a Chillul HaShem. I am publicly repudiating such behavior and I am asking that from this point on it should stop.

Someone may say to me, but look what they say about you or about X? My only answer to that is that among pious Jews it was the custom to learn the work called Tomer Devorah by the Remak during Ellul and Tishrei. In the first chapter he tells of how to apply the 13 midos of Rachamim. One is that of not answering those that denigrate you, but the opposite accept without response, and this is spiritually beneficial. If you are shamed and don’t respond then HaShem will be mashpia on you Chesed and Rachamim from the 13 midos.

I would ask of Rabbi Dovid Katz he should ask of his followers to act in the same way. However whether they do or not, I will say this. I will not forgive anyone who will answer any personal attacks on me in kind. That is all I will say on this subject.

***

This article will be an introduction and foundation to what will come after it. It will be a discussion of the halachic process in Judaism. Essentially I will answer the question of how do we get from a passage in the Talmud to a Rabbinic decision on what may or may not be done.

All Jewish law traces itself back to the Talmud. How this plays out in a practical manner is interesting. I am forced to simplify things here, but what follows is a good overview of how it is done. (I learned in a Kollel for Halacha, and this is based on what we did there and if you look at the responsa literature that is how they work.)

***

The Talmud has two types of commentaries. First you have Rashi and Tosephus, with others of that period like the Ritva, Ramban and Rashba. (There are more but these are the main ones we hear of from the period we call the Rishonim.) Their main goal is to explain what it is that the Talmud is saying and the views of those Rabbis quoted there. Tosephus is slightly different in that he tries to reconcile conflicting views in the Talmud or Rashi. (The Tosephus were from Rashi’s descendants and Talmidim.)

The second are the halachic commentaries, primarily the Rif, Ran, and Rosh. (For Ashkenazim I can add the Mordechai.) The Rif is sometimes called Talmud Katan (small Talmud). He goes through every tractate and excerpts the conclusions that lead to the halacha. The Ran is the main commentary on the Rif. The Rosh is similar to the Rif but he has more discussion about the Talmud and quotes from other sources like Rashi and Tosephus.

Outside of the Talmud are a number of important works, but usually only the Rambam is learned. The Rambam is like a Kitzur Shulchan Aruch of the Talmud. An important commentary on the Rambam is the Ravad, who points out when he disagrees with the conclusion the Rambam has. Besides that there are other commentaries: Kesif Mishnah from Rabbi Yosef Karo, author of the Shulchan Aruch; also the Maggid Mishnah and Lechem Mishnah. These later commentaries discuss the sources used by the Rambam.

Other important outside works that impact halchah are Smag (Sefer Mitzvahs Gadol); Smak (Sefer Mitzvos Katan) and many responsa works from the Gaonim and Rishonim. For Ashekenazim the Sefer Maharil is important for establishing the customs of Ashkenaz.

***

While the Rambam was the first major composition trying to systematize halacha, in some senses the more important is the Arbah Turim (sometimes just called the Tur). This was compiled by the son of the Rosh and was organized into 4 sections covering all of Jewish life and law as it applies today. (The Shulchan Aruch would later follow this division and use the same chapters.) In each chapter he brings the major views on the halachos. There are a number of primary commentaries on the Tur. First is the Beis Yosef, by Rabbi Yosef Karo (this is key to understanding what he says in Shulchan Aruch.); Darkei Moshe by the Rema (author of the glosses to Shulchan Aruch); the Bach one of the Gadolim of Ashkenaz and the Drishah/Perishah a running commentary on the Tur.

By learning the Tur and its commentaries; the Talmud and all the accumulated discussions and applications of these principles for over 1000 years; the halachic issues are brought together and we see where the Rabbis are going on almost all of the issues that will appear in Shulchan Aruch.

***

The basic sefer of Jewish Law today is the Shulchan Aruch. It has two parts: The Shulchan Aruch itself by Rabbi Yosef Karo and glosses on it by the Rema, representing where the custom in Ashkenaz is different. The reason for that is that when the Shulchan Aruch first came out there was a problem. In deciding what the Halacha would be Rabbi Yosef Karo took the majority view of the three major Rabbis: Rif, Rosh and Rambam. The problem was that this did not reflect practice in the lands of Ashkenaz which had halachic traditions that were different. The Rema by adding his glosses made the Shulchan Aruch a work that could be used by all Jews. If one has learned from the Talmud through the earlier sources to the Tur, when you look at the Shulchan Aruch there are rarely any new ideas.

The Shulchan Aruch was not enough by itself so there were added a number of commentaries to clarify, and at times to point out alternate practices. Some of the main ones are these: Mogan Avraham, Taz, Shach, Bar Heitiv, Pri Magadim.

Later other rabbis came along and wrote modified Shulchan Aruchs to take into consideration these commentaries and other issues. The three main ones are Mishnah Berura, Aruch HaShulchan and Shulchan Aruch Harav.

***

When it comes to deciding on what the halacha is a Rabbi will need to be familiar with the Talmud and all the sources that are key to understanding the Shulchan Aruch. If not what he will say will not reflect what the true Halacha is.

However with regards to the laws of Noah it is not as simple. Those laws which have a similarity to Jewish law can be found the same way as Jewish law, following the tradition of the halacha from the Talmud to Shulchan Aruch. But in many cases the tradition stops with the Rambam, and is picked up in other sources outside of the Tur. In that case we turn to the commentaries on the Talmud and Rambam, and later Responsa works.

***

When looking at the above sources, especially when it refers to the 7 laws, we find many times that there are disagreements as to what to follow.

In Jewish law there are some general principles that come into play. For example, if it is a Biblical law as opposed to a rabbinic one, we will be more stringent. If the majority or consensus is that it is forbidden, we will forbid it, unless in cases of emergency. If a minority forbid, the pious will refrain from that action even though strictly speaking it is allowed.

In the overwhelming majority of the cases the disagreements of the rabbis are based on how they understand these rules to play out, or where there is a local custom to act different than the rule. This is actually why there is disagreement among the scholars of the Laws of Noah as to the application of the laws in many situations.

***

Why is ‘Ger’ is different? Why don’t those Rabbis who disagree with it see it as the same as any other Rabbinic disagreement? I have heard this asked in different forms, and it is a valid question. There are two reasons for this:

1. Having read Katz’ books and also listened to many of his videos on the subject the biggest problem is that he is very unclear about what he is trying to say. His followers are even more unclear. Being familiar with the sources and reading his stuff, I am at times confused as to his point. Does he agree with the majority or not and why? The Appendix of his new book is certainly an attempt to rectify this, but there are problems, which I will address in later articles.

Just to exemplify this point let’s look at this: What is the difference between a ‘ger’ and a ‘Noahide’? The only practical difference seems to be that the former rejects Shituff and the later does not. But I don’t understand that. Many of us involved with Noahides say that a Noahide MUST reject Shituff. I will devote a whole article on this subject later. But even those who maintain that the Halacha is according to those who say it is not forbidden, do not maintain it is allowed. They will also tell a Noahide that he should not have that false belief. So what is the difference? If there is, Katz’ writing is so poor that no one can figure out what the difference is.

2. More importantly, all the Rabbis I know who are involved read the same texts, and understand them basically the same way except in a few cases where the problem is an ambiguity of the wording and not a fundamental reading of the text. That is not the case with Katz. He will many times say a text says something, but when the text is looked at what he claims it says is not there.

Let me give an example which was asked of me a few days ago. In The World of the Ger on page 34 Katz claims that the Vilna Gaon maintained that the halacha was that a ger toshiv living in Israel was required to keep the mitzvos including circumcision. His source was from the work of the Vilna Gaon called Adras Eliyahu on Deuteronomy 32:9. Here is the text in the Hebrew original:


I will translate it, but before that we need to know two things: First is that according to Judaism there are 70 nations and each one has his own ‘prince’ or angel overseeing it. (See Daniel 10:13)

The second is that in 2 Kings 17 we are told that after the people were exiled from the northern kingdom the Assyrians brought in a foreign people who were idol worshippers, But they were attacked by wild animals, which they believed was caused by their not worshipping the god of that land. So they instituted worship of their old gods and also the God of Israel.

Now here is the text:

Because the Lord's portion is His people Jacob, the lot of His inheritance.” Above there is a portion (land) for each prince. Each prince of a people has chosen to take his own people.

And He took the land of Israel as His portion and gave it as a gift to Israel, as it says “all those who live outside the land (of Israel) are like those who have no god’ (Kesubos 110b) because they are under the princes (of those lands.)

But in the land of Israel there is no control over her by the 70 princes therefore even the nations (goyim) who dwell in the land of Israel need to keep all the mitzvos as it says with regards to the Kitim, “(they do not know) the law of the god of the land.” (2 Kings 17:26).

This is what it means, “because the Lord's portion is His people”, what HaShem takes as His portion (the land of Israel) He gives to His people.


If we look at the text in the Tenach these people were still idol worshippers, and not ‘gerei toshiv’. Also there was no halachic requirement for them, just a question of self-preservation. This passage has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of ‘ger’ and proves nothing. This is typical of the many sources that are cited, as we shall see in later articles.

***

In the next article I will deal with something the Ger people make a big issue of; that is the word: ‘Noahide’. Following that I will start to deal with some of the main sources used to support the ideas of ‘Ger’. I will then look carefully at the book Laws of Ger Toshiv. I will start in the Appendix and then go back to the text. While doing this I will try to touch on many issues of importance and disagreement. I will address any questions that people will pose to me.

I hope that this has been helpful and look forward to further discussions with you.


33 comments:

  1. I read this, I have to say I am sad that you didn't really come up with good points.

    Yes Rabbi Katz does use Ger a lot and for the new listener they won't know where Ger fits in a sentence and that's the point!! It's hard to get Ger at first because it's used IN TORAH AND TALMUD many times for different situations!!!

    Secondly you covered 1 small point on one page of a huge book that is nonstop bringing up the Torah of Shem and use of Ger and where the Ger Tshova fit in, including multiple references both Torah and Talmud of the use GER while "Noahide" is found nowhere. Although everyone understands why the Noahide term came up and is used. To cover the laws of Noah. However, if you look at the 7 laws, 6 are negative and 1 positive and none demand the "person in question" to acknowledge that there is a G-d. Thus even an Atheist could be a Noahide.

    So what is a Ger? Since you didnt' listen to the references in his book or any videos, I'll simplify it. Ger Tshova are those who know there is a G-d, who cling to Israel as a friend and do the 7 categorical laws. There's multiple Talmud and Torah text for this. Rabbi David Katz is not the first rabbi to bring up the "Ger" and how they fit or even prove that one can be a Ger while the Temple isn't even active.

    :/ As for the slander and name calling, it's one way. Let's be honest. I've got around 150 screenshots of the Noahide group, Jews, NonJews, and RABBIS over there name calling and threatening. I have 0 of any of the Ger people. 0. There was accusations of threats but they were already looked at. Someone making a video PRIOR to this argument about "hunting Erev Rav" is not a threat to anyone, except Erev Rav. Come on!!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you for your comments. Let me reply as follows:

      1. I have been learning Torah in general from before Katz was born and the Noahide laws for 20 years or so so I can tell you that 'ger' as you and others understand it, does not appear in Torah or Talmud. In fact it is quite confusing as a term of identification because it conflicts with other accepted terms in Judaism. I do not expect you to accept my word at this time. I will have more articles and through them I will show you that on this point there is no doubt.

      2 . Correct I covered one small point. As I said in the article that was the point of this one. It is the first of many that will come. It will be impossible to illustrate the problem without breaking it down into many small ones. But read this one again and remember clearly what is there, as later articles depend on your remembering them.

      3. Your definition of 'Ger' applies to every Noahide I have met, So what is the difference?

      4. The attacks are not one way. I would just mention the open slander of Rabbi Bloomenstiel on the IGetGer page. I know of more, but the point is to stop it. But no matter which way it is coming, at least you can agree with me that it should stop, no matter which side it is coming from. I don't see any indication that you think there is something wrong calling a talmud chocham from the erev rav? Which I see as the problem.

      Delete
    2. 1. I thought this blog was supposed to be strictly to discuss the sources and not, "My yichus is better than your yichus."

      2. The small point you brought out should actually be attributed to Chlorfene who is the author of the book. While Katz brought his work to the book, the section you commented on was related to what Chlorfene wrote. I think the focus on Kutim there does not address the context of what is quoted from the Gra, and when looking at the Gra it is pretty simply stated.

      3. While I would agree that the attacks were taking place on both sides, what is happening now is a response from one side. I for one have been attacked and lumped in with a group of people to which I have no connection in a group that is overseen by Bloomenstiel and Rabbi Coffman. These attacks continue on a daily basis with no intervention from those Rabbis.

      It should also be known here that prior to the letter that was issued, which included your signature and an addendum you were discussing the prospect of dialogue with Rabbi Katz. I even gave you his number and you chose not to engage at that time.

      I have been involved for the last 3 years in trying to get what you are doing now to take place, a discussion. At every turn, I was told by some of the Rabbis that signed the letter against Katz and Chlorfene that they had no desire to discuss the issues with them. That makes the letter somewhat disingenuous when it states that attempts were made to resolve this.

      I have tried to stay as neutral as I can over these years, but it makes in increasingly difficult to remain neutral when there are so many inconsistencies being put out there.

      Delete
    3. To which my answer will be very straight forward. I haven't entered the fray for very good reason. My name has been plastered all over the place as part of the erev rav, and have received more than my share of condescending comments that don't need to be repeated.

      This has been gone on for a long time without any remorse whatsoever. That being said, when it was decided that this needed to be addressed, it has been. I also agree that going back and forth is a big chilul hashem, at the same time people need to be warned about what these people are doing.

      This blog will put to rest their claims and the absurdity of them.

      Oh, by the way, I have been learning for more than 25 years and yes I know how to learn the sources as well.

      And this is the reason that I have not engaged. When you are told you are wrong, don't know how to learn...you really believe there is going to be a dialogue here?

      I am not alone in this and it has happened to many others

      Delete
    4. 1. Not sure what you mean by Yichus. The only thing I can imagine is that I mentioned that I learned in a Kollel.

      2. You seem to assume when I talk of errors around 'ger' it only means Rabbi Katz. This passage was mentioned as opposed to others because Pam Rogers mentioned it to me and she is a ger supporter. There is much more to come. As to the Kitum who are idolaters, how can you understand what he says there if you don't know that? The point is that they are not gerim toshvim by any definition, which is the claim on page 34. That is all. It is truly a point so minor as to not be worth discussing. But how can you argue I am wrong when the book says the Gra talks fo GT and the Gra talks about idol worshippers? You are aware of the status of Kitum in halchah?

      3. I don't care what happened in the past. From to day on it must stop. Agreed or not?

      Delete
    5. The bulk of my post was directed at Moshe Shulman, and I only secondarily mentioned your name as you are one of the Rabbis who oversees the Leaving Christianity group. In recent days I have received messages from people sending me screenshots of my name being attached to a group of people to which I have no connection, implying that I am somehow part of a group that has been attacking people. Anyone that knows me, knows that I have from the start been one of the people that has tried to broker peace. Avi Bloomenstiel can easily attest to this fact, as we have been in communication for over 3 years. I am far more knowledgable about this issue and the people involved, and the attacks that have taken place from both sides.

      I merely stated that you have allowed people in that group to continue to attack whoever they disagree with. The group is predominantly made up of non Jews, and you are allowing to let non Jews attack other Jews, like me with no correction at all. I believe this is more than a responsibility on your part, and you cannot say that it has anything to do with staying out of the fray. I have never said a bad word to you, and have always treated you with respect, I cannot say the same about the way you have been treating me of late.

      I am getting tired of hearing I have been learning, I have been learning, stop all of you with the yichus nonsense.

      I have on agenda in this and this is to see this put to rest regardless of which side it falls on, and at the end of the day, I wish you luck if you think that somehow a blog is going the solve this, or even a letter like the one that was issued.

      Avi Bloomenstiel himself has said on numerous occasions that this will only be resolved by Gedolei Torah, and while I respect you, I do not believe those currently involved in this discussion fit in that category. The problem is, as Avi has also maintained is that the Gedolei Torah won't resolve it because they don't care enough about the issue of the non Jews to get involved. So, what does that say about our role of being a light to the nations.

      Anyone that has been involved in the Counter Missionary community for any length of time like myself and Moshe Shulman, you get used to hearing that you don't know how to learn, or you really don't understand what the scriptures say. Our response it to show the Torah and the sources for why the other side doesn't know what they are talking about. So, yes I really believe that there can be diaogue

      I have personally attempted to put some of the Rabbis who signed that letter in touch, and they refused. So, you can't cry foul now, just because someone hurt your feelings by saying you don't know the sugia. You show them they are wrong.

      To date, all I have ever heard anyone say is, "You are wrong, or you are teaching outside of what normative Judaism teaches." That is not an answer.

      Anyway, as I said, good luck thinking that a blog is going to resolve this. However, I do think some things will come to light that nobody expected when the dust settles.

      Delete
    6. Mr Brian mcComas. Please send me the screenshots of these rabbis, non jews etc. Posts wherein they throw slander at the faction of david katz and his followers. Id like to see them. Thanks.
      (pls send to: belangamoshe@gmail.com)

      Delete
    7. Moshe Shulman on point three I agree absolutely 100% but I have never been part of the attacks and my name has been dragged into this. The Rabbis who could put an end to that have chosen not to.

      I have over the last 3 years rebuked Dovid Katz numerous times to which he will attest. He has not spoken to me for over 1 year because of this issue, and I only recently started speaking to me, and it has to do only because I consider friendships to be more important than disagreements.

      What I see now, is followers on both sides or supporters of one side or the other who are the ones involved in this now. I have had several people tell me that Katz does not control them and what they say. This monster that has been created on both sides is unfortunately out of control, and I am not sure that it will stop for some time. This can no longer be blamed on the individuals that are on the front lines of this.

      Delete
  2. It has been shown to me that there was an objection to my referring to the Rambam as 'like a Kitzer Shulchan Aruch'. This was not meant disrespectful. It is actually what the Rambam says in the beginning of his introduction to the Mishnah Torah:

    "My intention in this work is the shorten (kitzer) the explanation of the halachah from the Mishnah and it is not my intention to completely explain each Mitzvah and to bring everything needed ..."

    The many commentaries like the Kesef Mishnah and including those of the Gadolim from Brisk was to find the sources and explain how and why the Rambam came to his conclusions.

    ReplyDelete
  3. You know, I was going to address this since my name is mentioned.... after rethinking it, I am not except that I would caution you on this one thing..... be very careful using Rabbi Schwartz's name on your letter. He has been misinformed before and I know of at least one instance where a ruling was made in the name of his Beith Din (secretly of course) so secret in fact he wasn't aware of the situation until after the ruling was given! Unfortunately those with agendas will stop at nothing to cause destruction...... The solution? Stop all the infighting..... agree to disagree.... let non-jews follow or learn from those they understand, people have different learning styles as do teachers have different teaching styles..... there is to be ONE Israel the Nation of Israel and there has always been and always will be people from the Nations who cling to it...... stop pushing them away.... call them what Torah calls them, so there isn't an Halachic Ger Toshav right now, but there will be.... so let people learn what that means and practice being a good one so when the "Official" status can be given, they will already be informed and practicing........ Good grief just stop with the divisiveness already...... God gave the instructions, he told Moshe they weren't so difficult so, stop making them more difficult than they need to be... at one time Rambam was considered a heretic and now look at how ya'll fight over what he taught...... Stop it!
    Ok, I am done.......... there is no sense in going further... we are done .... back to our wilderness.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you for participating. As to Rav Schwartz he produced his own letter. I guess someone would need to speak to him personally to see if he knows the facts.

      As to teachers, of course non Jews will chose who they want. This is not North Korea. :) But it is incumbent on those who have learned this subject to speak out when needed. As I write articles you will see that there are differences of opinion, and also why. As I pointed out this is different from the issues we have with the ger people on many levels. I would rather teach Torah then talk about such things. I hope to have the next article in a few days.

      Delete
  4. this is intended for everyone:
    •the public name-calling and disrespect must end. it is a tremendous chillul Hashem.
    •IMHO there are two main issues at hand here:

    a) What is the halachic definition of 'bnei noah', aka Noahide and of 'ger toshav'?

    b) are bnei noah permitted (or supposed to) keep mitzvos? Which mitzvos are obligatory on bnei noah, which are optional, and which are forbidden?

    I am certainly not a Torah scholar or a Rav, but based on my studies and on my conversations with several rabbis, the issues i have mentioned above arent so clear-cut as Reb Moshe Shulman presents them.

    Let's focus on actual issues, and let's refrain from acting like a bunch of islamistic extremists throwing fatwas at each other. We CAN follow different opinions without putting others down. We CAN agree to disagree without disrespecting others.
    ...Sincerely, Zalman (Solomon) Slowik

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This will be discussed in late articles.

      Delete
    2. I thought I would add something here. Let me give the short answer, and the long answer will appear in later articles.

      a. bnei noach can mean one of three things: 1. human being 2. non-Jew 3. non-Jew who keeps the 7 commandments. A Noahide is a new term to describe non Jews who are keeping the 7 mitzvos. I discuss that in the next article. Ger Toshiv is a non Jew who takes upon him or herself to keep the 7 mitzvos before an authorized beit din. This will be discussed later but we poskin there is no real ger toshiv today.

      b. permitted - according to some it is and we will discuss that in other articles. supposed to - NO. The 7 are obligatory, and that would include any 'mitzvah' that is separated a a separate mitzvah for a Jew, but for the non-Jew is contained in the same category. For example adultery and incest are two mitzvos for Jews, but one for the non-Jew.

      Delete
  5. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ger_toshav

    ReplyDelete
  6. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  7. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Brian McComas I will not tolerate personal attacks here. I have deleted your two posts. If you have any comments to the point of what I have written, then feel free to post here. If you want to brawl, go to your local bar.

    ReplyDelete
  9. The easiest way to create a lie is to control the information. Well played. Now people see i have 2 comments removed, then they see your comment Moshe, and now they will assume i have name called and slandered.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I understand your anger but you made personal attacks on RCC. Whether justified or not, I will not allow them here. Had RCC done the same I would have deleted his post also. Your other post was on topic and so it will stay here. Any other posts you wish to make will also stay here as long as it does not include personal attacks people by name. If you doubt my sincerity I suggest you look at Ira's post. It was not removed because he kept it general and did not attack anyone personally. I a serious in doing my part to stop these attacks of people on each side, and just keeping to the topic and Torah. If you are not serious about having a dialogue, then maybe this is not the place for you.

      If you want to reformat your comment without personal attacks feel free to repost it.

      Delete
  10. What attacks did i make? The point where i specifically said that I warned him about his name being used by his students? Or the the part where I said he can't sign his name onto things and then ask to be out of this? Oh whelp nevermind. the world will never know what i said huh. All because of you deleting what i said. Now you can fashion whatever you want. Where have i seen this before? Hmmmm

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I have saved your posts. You mentioned someone by name. It i a judgement call on my part.

      Delete
  11. I been in this game 4 years pal. I know the moves of dishonest people. Go check out my very public wall Moshe, and see what i had screenshot. :) I screenshot EVERYTHING for a reason!

    You guys should really practice "watching your words" or at least screenshot more often.

    There's too much Over balanced Chesed from one side here, and too much deception with smoke and mirrors and over Severity in the other side. 4 years of this!!! This is literally 4 years!

    Check my page. :D I'm 2 steps ahead of you and your ilk.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Brian of someone will mention Katz by name and speak disparaging of him, I will also delete the post. I would only ask you to read over you post and ask yourself: Does it have anything to do with Torah?

      Delete
  12. I fully engaged a couple of Noahides who were out right slandering R'Katz. This was full on character assassination at its finest. These two's views weren't near as frustrating to learn as it was that there were Rabbis out there deliberately fueling this atrocity of so called "Godfearers". These Noahides feeling so freely to slander a good man's name...

    And like has been mentioned, no one stepping in to quash this thing.

    Mr. Shulman, I've been asking you for sources for your claims for some time now. and recently, you said to wait for the blog./ Well, I'm here and I gotta admit, this is pretty weak. And this is a trait that you shore. You aren't alone. Dozens of these"promient" Noahide folk will cite the Law all day, while evil speeching the man and his friends, students and the like.

    Where your blog lacks, like nearly every other over the top attack of this boogeyman you people have created, you never actually source the man, his works or his teachings. You people never actually get to the point. Rabbi David Katz is so awesome, he cites his sources. Well Hali-freakin-luiah. Someone has to. You don't. People who are out to get him don't. That pathetic excuse for a letter you guys wrote up PROVIDED NO SOURCES EITHER. All you people did was slander the man... because nothing backed up your claims.

    I speak pretty frankly about this, so I'm gonna give you some advise, and this goes for all of you reading.

    "There is no such thing as bad publicity." - P.T. Barnum

    All you guys have done is turned brother against brother. Ben Noah against Ben Noah. And in the end, those folks who have been hell bend for years to extinguish the ger sugia have become a nasty bunch of small minded, sour people... and it shows. Hang with Katz's students and all you're gonna be doing is talking Torah. These people don't need to slander others behind their backs. We don't need to evil speech our brethren or a Kohen Rabbi to learn the Torah and know our place in His creation.

    I don't need your civil war. None of us do.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Since this is only the first post and an introduction at that I think you are a bit premature in your comments.

      In any case, maybe you would place here which questions you wish for me to address here with sources, and I will fit them in.

      Delete
  13. Only 1 side is Naming Rabbis and claiming Rabbi's are saying things they are NOT.
    Only 1 side has multiple leaders engaged in threats, name calling and lying.
    Only 1 side claims Christianity is being taught on the other side.
    Only 1 side posts "Fat" jokes and memes nonstop (I have the screenshots of she who won't be named)
    Only 1 side screams victim while not directly debating the REAL ISSUE of if Ger is legit today.
    Only 1 side has ZERO direct references and books to counter the other side.
    Only 1 side IGNORES the multiple references of Talmud and Torah that one side gives.
    Only 1 side loves to Stamp names to the attacks, then cry "Why Am i being called Erev Rav"?

    Does this sum it up for you?

    In case it doesn't. I've seen 0 screenshots from ALL OF the people involved on the Noahide camp of anyone on the Ger side doing anything "nasty" this INCLUDES myself.

    I have seen literally 300 screenshots of multiple leaders on the Noahide camp saying lies, spreading slander and demanding to block people simply because they associate with others in the Ger camp. That should have been the EYE OPENER.

    The fact this has gone on 4 years should be another eye opener.
    You guys play victim. You pull in BIG RABBIs who have NO CLUE what is happening!! I have the screenshots of ME TALKING TO THESE RABBIS from now till years back of them saying "Brian i don't know why (Nameless person) said this about me and I have never said that about (Fill in the blank).

    You guys are in the wrong. Period.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Brian, let me make this simple. None of the people talking are me. On this blog it is forbidden. Forbidden to talk that way and forbidden to discuss. OVER. If you are only interested in fighting and things going on outside of this blog, than this is not for you.

      Delete
  14. Look at this post. It's about the 24th post from YOUR Camp bashing the Ger.

    ReplyDelete
  15. From this point on ANY post by anyone referencing negative statement said by anyone in another place on the Internet will be deleted. You have no right to complain from this point on. After Shabbos if the posters here have not removed the posts referring to posts negative posts outside of here, I will need to remove them. This blog is here to present Torah and sources with regards to the Noahide laws, and not waste time with childish posts.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Rabbi Shulman,

    Please accept my gratitude for your undertaking this task. I look forward to your upcoming essays. This is an important work you are doing.

    Jim

    ReplyDelete
  17. I am late to this discussion but would like to offer a couple of observations.
    1) Give Reb Moshe time. This is a topic that needs to be fully sourced, reasoned and Reb Moshe is well known to be thorough in this regard. This is a machloket that should not be rushed.
    2) Let's try to look on the bright side. The fact that this becoming an issue, is likely a messianic advancement. Further evidence of the "birth pangs". So rather than see this as a divisive topic, maybe we should try to view this as a positive development.
    3) Hashem echad u'shemo echad, ein od milvado...We all agree on that and that is huge...that is the tikkun of reality that will change the world.

    ReplyDelete

Shituff and the Noahide The most consistently raised issue by the ‘Ger’ crowd against other Noahides is with regards to what is calle...